How far is too far?
2009 March 4
So I mentor a group of beautiful and energetic and amazing young ladies from the college just down the road. And it’s time for us to have “the talk.”
NO. Silly. Not “THE Talk” – notice the lack of uppercase in the sentence above: “the talk.”
It’s a talk about “THE Talk.”
Confusing? I didn’t think so.
Anyway, “the talk” consists of me doing my darnedest to explain to them “how far is too far.”
And, yes, I’ve given “the talk” before. (Thankfully, I’ve only given “THE Talk” once. And I’m still trying to get over it.)
Ok.
So why am I writing this?
To compare notes…
How would YOU answer that question: How far is too far?
And, oh don’t worry, they WILL be reading your answers.
(Hey girls! Chicken & Dumplins & “the talk” this week?)
Wow.
I think that the biggest obstacle is that “too far” is going to be different from person to person. For two or three couples at my church in high school or just out of it, kissing is too far. For others, they’d say that’s absolutely crazy. But I will say that if you don’t get to the point of kissing, you’re probably not going to get any further, no?
It’s likely tougher for the guy than the girl across the board. I think that a girl could kiss a guy, for instance, and the next day tell him that they’re “just friends.” Boys are different, you know. But maybe I’m looking at that from a biased point of view.
I’d ask them to define what they think would be too far for each of them individually, and then have them explain why.
The Baptist Church did something like this with dancing and with drinking, I believe. They figured if there’s some bad stuff on the other end, then complete, total abstinence from any of its forms is the only sure-fire way to avoid the devil. In today’s culture, that’s really seen as a dumb thing by many people. I imagine that “no kissing” seems that way to younger couples. For some people it wouldn’t lead very far, but for others it would be… ah… the key to the proverbial chastity belt.
Finding a way to help other people learn from your great wisdom (yours, not mine) can be tough.
I, for one, am really anxious to hear how far is too far after you all get through discussing it.
Sitting in the dugout, thinking about the game is fine.
.
You may stand on first base, provided you’re only there to coach.
2nd base is off limits
You’re not even allowed to coach 3rd base
You CANNOT umpire, catch or be anywhere near home plate….and NO, the bat should never be in your hands, cuz you’re not hittin anything
Too far is when even though your body is saying yes, your mind and spirit are screaming no..wait. Too far has to be rationalized. Too far brings guilt…if I could go back in time, I would pray before every date I went on…
Toby: Did I mention that I’m mentoring girls? The baseball analogy, while very relevant, might be lost on them!
PS: good thoughts, y’all… good thoughts. Thank you.
Hey, you said college ladies….Surely they’ll know what I’m sayin
. Just tell em to pretend Daddy is talkin!
TOO far is most definitely when your doctor says: ” Congratulations Mrs Smith – you’re pregnant!
“It’s MISS Smith, Doctor….”
followed by what can be called a ‘pregnant’ pause.
<B
Careful, Love. Don’t be a jerk.
“how far is too far?” is really just asking the question “how far can I go? how close to what God has called out-of-bounds can i get and still be ok?”
and i think that’s the wrong question.
it’s like people are trying to see how close to the edge of the grand canyon i can stand… the truth is, you COULD walk right on up to the edge. but then you risk falling over that edge and into the danger you were warned about.
the good news for people visiting the grand canyon is that some park ranger decided, “we’ll set up a safety rail WELL AWAY FROM DANGER and tell people not to cross it. better safe than sorry.” and we need to be our own little park ranger and set up our own little safety rail well away from our area of temptation to avoid us risking flirting with disaster and accidentally or in the heat of the moment or being talked into falling over that edge into the danger we were warned about.
so, a better question is “where is it WISE to set MY boundaries so i’m not TEMPTED to get into danger sexually?”
and the answer to that is going to be a little farther from danger than a person “could” go, and a little further from the “fun” that fooling around now would be, but when you consider your hopes and dreams for what you could have with mr. right (or mrs. right, for the guys dropping in), wouldn’t you rather not risk the danger? wouldn’t you rather not have to live with the scars? wouldn’t rather not have to tell the story of when you got just a little too close to the edge by seeing just how far you could go?
I always told my kids that they could do ANYTHING that they would be comfortable doing in front of their daddy…
Anything other than that is too far until they are married.
That pretty much puts the damper on it…and protects them from going too far.
Merrie: That’s a good (and paralyzing) thought right there. whew
When you are dating, you are in essence “borrowing” the spouse of someone else for a season. If at your wedding everyone your spouse ever dated came up to you and gave you an account of what happened, how would you feel?
I like the idea of asking a different question as suggested above. Perhaps “How consecrated to God can I be physically before marriage?” or “How much can I save for my wedding day? Do I just want to save intercourse? Do I want to save petting, kissing, etc?” I know a guy and gal who didn’t even hold hands for 9 months of dating. A bit extreme, I know, but something to ask ourselves. Also, a good question is “If the culture around me wasn’t so hardcore in pressuring me to be in a relationship, might God actually be calling me to a time (maybe even a lifetime) of celebacy?” It’s a bit sad that we never encourage that question anymore even though Paul suggests that every believer should wrestle with it.
This isn’t exactly answering the question, but i think an important thing to address on the topic is that it’s not enough just to set your own boundaries and stick to them. It’s infinitely more helpful to talk to the person you’re dating and set boundaries together. Yes, this is a little awkward. But having boundaries and expectations clearly set up greatly decreases false hopes and temptation. It’s all about a mindset of enjoying the physical stuff while still honoring the person you’re dating and making it clear how you expect them to honor you. Good communication (with words and not just body language) is essential. And if you don’t feel comfortable talking about things that are as intimate and awkward as the physical aspects of a relationship, chances are that you need to take a big step back from the physical stuff. A relationship (just like so many things in life) requires balance, so if your physical activities are growing beyond your intimacy in other matters (emotional, spiritual, communicative, timing–i.e. how close you are to marriage, etc.), there’s a good chance that you’re in need of a good old fashion RDT (Relationship-Defining Talk). Because people at Christian colleges just love those.
)
Hmmm… how to not cross the line…now that is very interesting. I guess if you are asking the question if it is over the line – it most likely is. But for me, this is a very interesting topic. I have two girls and this is an issue that is starting to haunt me.
So my thoughts: Most kids – younger and older, boys and girls – find it difficult to tell the difference between love and infatuation. If you asked each of the girls you are helping if they thought that they were in love either now or once before, I would venture to guess that each one would say yes. Now if “love” was the only determining factor determining “how far each one goes with a guy,” asked them to think about the last guy they thought they were in “love with.” That guy is probably long gone. So was it love? Was it infatuation? Does it matter now that he is gone?
Love needs to be felt equally by both. Not a one sided. And for me love is finally off the rocket pad once a couple is married. Until then, anything can happen. And there are times that it does happen. I knew a couple who have dated for 3 years, planned a wedding and one of them walked away – they were in love with someone else. One was in love, and the other wasn’t as much.
But to answer the question more thoroughly, handing hands, kissing hi and bi, and things along those lines I think show affection, without the possibility of having things go to far. Without crossing the line. To far, to me, is anything past what I just noted.
Save intimacy for that “one true love,” not the current “love.” In today’s society I know it is tough. And guys make it tougher. But then again, we are hearing where girls are making it tougher on guys.
Again, it comes back to if you are asking the question if it is over the line – it most likely is.
Oh man. talk about a subject that I have had to think about alot recently.
Most of my comment will be from a guy’s perspective and directed at guys.
Instead of asking the question how far is too far, I like to ask “Is this glorifying God and honoring Him and his commands?”
Part of my job as a guy(a man in the eyes of God) is not only to honor Him and bring Him glory in all that I do; but it is also my job to honor my sisters in Christ and to protect their purity. Until you’re married your current girlfriend or romantic interest is your sister in Christ. My Senior and Youth Pastors both have a quote that they like to use and it goes like this: “Don’t do anything you wouldn’t do with your sister”. Guys, its your job to protect her purity, hopefully she’ll do the same for you, but you are a leader whether you like it or not. We as men need to step up to the plate and shoulder the burden of watching out for our sisters in Christ….
I may now go write a blog post about this, i dunno
These are some GREAT thoughts!!!
Thanks, y’all. I can’t wait for to talk about this… “the talk.”
Wheee.
I say cut the sugar coating and tell em this:
If you’re not married and you have to ask if something is too far, then it probably is.
@Russ, I agree completely….i’m not married, YET
One of my mentors used to say “when in doubt, DON’T.”
Applicable?
I had a HUGE post about this, and my internet crapped on me.
I’m so upset! 
Basically what I said was, looking back with 20/20 I wish I had saved even my kisses. Yes it may be overkill, but unfortunately I also have a lot to regret. I’d rather have nothing to regret than everything y/k? I would however haved kissed Jake once we were engaged, but that is how I feel now 8 years later. I have way more “experience” if you will, than he does and there is not a day that don’t wish it was different.
I was taught to not have sex and that was it. So I didn’t, but I thought everything leading up to it was okay. So so soooo not true.
I was reading Josh’s perspective on this, and I think it is awesome. If I were to use his same analogy, I’d say I was hanging from that cliff for a long time, and while I didn’t fall, it’s just as scary and a memory I’d rather not have.
What great thoughts and insights! I’m like Brandy in that I was told not to have sex, but I didn’t know that there’s a lot of “stuff” that comes before that. And that stuff might just be as harmful as the actual sex. I read a book once that said touching any area that your swimsuit covers is too far – but I think that might only work for people like me who wear one-piece suits. I like Toby’s analogy, actually, and the commenter who said only do things you’d do in front of your dad. WOW, that one would have saved me some heartache!
“Guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life.”
Proverbs 4:23
Ask God to put this verse in your head every time you are heading in the wrong direction in this area. Make yourself accountable to someone your trust and will be truthful with that you will turn and run if that happens.
Bran & Mary: I’m liking what you two are bringing to this… yeah. There’s a LOT that happens before.
OK, this is a place I have a lot of experience. I also mentor young girls and I have this talk all the time. I always tell them you need to come up with the ground rules now, so that when things get intense you already know what to do. The number one thing to remember when coming up with your ground rules is when you start something it is hard to stop.
Like if you start kissing it leads to french kissing, french kissing leads to touching and well you get the picture. As time goes on these lines will get crossed more and more. I always STRONGLY suggest to put that line WAY far away from trouble. It is much easier to say no when you start french kissing for a minute than 20 minutes.
So that is my 2 cents.
One more point I want to make is that dating has a really important purpose. During that time you are getting to know each other, becoming friends and ultimately figuring out if you want to spend your life together. Once you turn on the physical side in a dating relationship the whole focus becomes that and then you aren’t building a lasting relationship.
Here is a scary thought. Every relationship I got physical in ended. What if that were true for you. You have to remember no matter how great things are until after the wedding it can end.
Great stuff! I think for me I “heard” what people said but didn’t understand what it meant that guys are different than girls when it comes to physical attraction. If you could somehow make them realize the reality through metaphor or something I think that would help a lot. I’m not sure if you are the person for this but what do you think about talking about what sex means, feels like, does, etc. I think understanding what one is NOT doing is so essential to understanding the situation. They may even need to hear that when one gets married sex isn’t all that you see in the movies! How many times a week a couple is intimate is way less than the average non-married college student expects. In fact, the best part of being married is not really the intimacy physically, but the deep commitment to another than no matter what happens, fights, loss of a child, unemployment, bankruptcy, sin, everything you can think of, that person has committed to standing beside you! That is what is missing in our understanding of marriage and intimacy!! It’s all about gettin’ busy and having fun but life isn’t fun all the time! And what we need is something deeper. So, revealing the ins and outs of an intimate relationship in marriage may kill the ‘fantasy’ and the ‘unknown’ of it all and help singles be able to concentrate on what is really valuable.
I could go on and on…sorry! Good luck!
SUCH WISE WISDOM!
Yes… Redundant, I know…
This totally meant to be serious, but I know you’ll laugh. When i was in highschool, and going to prom, and was going to be staying at a hotel…my youth pastor at the time told me.
” Between you and your date, will be Jesus.”
Yea, if that isn’t convicting LOL.
It really does help to stay on the straight and narrow, listening to praise music, or watching a Christian show on TV; do all you can to keep yourself from thinking about ” other” things.
My mom always said it was important to be faithful to your husband, even if you haven’t met him yet.
That made sense to me.
She also used to pray for the people we would marry some day since we were little kids. She prayed that as they were growing up they too would be protected from harm and make good decisions.
Knowing those things made that unknown person real enough to want to respect.
She wasted a lot of prayers for my husband since he doesn’t exist
, but it was still great for perspective growing up.
WOW, is this a huge topic.
(And I have to note, Mandy – you’ve pulled out pretty much every single guy to comment on this one!)
Ummm… from my perspective … I have several ‘views.’
1) ‘too far’ is subjective and individual. Someone else’s boundaries will never fly in the moment.
2) for a girl – BE PICKY on the guy you choose. I cannot stress this enough. Their boundaries will become your boundaries in the heat of the moment. If they have a decent understanding of what boundaries are, and an understanding that they are to be respected at all costs – you have a treasure. This is THE MOST important thing. (At least from the sex standpoint. Salvation is the most important overall.) See, what happens in the moment, is that guys are the most susceptible to ‘going too far.’ Their drive for it is POWERFUL. And as women, it is created into us (see Genesis) to want to give in to him, and to enjoy that he needs us that much. If there is not an agreement between both people that they will, at all costs, respect the other person’s boundaries, firstly because they are the other person’s boundaries, and secondly because what they’re waiting for is WORTH waiting for (even as excruciatingly hard as it is), then ‘too far’ will be reached.
3) how you were raised seems to be the single greatest thing that will determine your boundaries in the heat of the moment. Sometimes what you ‘decide’ in your head cannot match the patterns you’ve lived.
4) I think respect line-crossing is quite probably the greater issue than the physical line-crossing. The only reason to hold back is out of respect for someone. Respect for your own body, respect for his, respect for God, respect for your families, respect for what marriage is designed to be, respect for your future relationship. The physical boundaries my husband and I crossed before we were married – in many ways don’t even make a blip on the radar for me now (he was my only boyfriend, it should be said – baggage from other relationships is a whole other ball of wax), but the disrespect … yep, that still gets me. Not that it can’t be healed … but that was the weightier issue.
And finally … what boundaries I would set right now, knowing myself (which as I said before is subjective, but just in case it helps someone): Being alone, with no one around is the single biggest and easiest to fix thing in setting boundaries. People around = most people won’t ‘go for it.’ Nobody around = might as well be a bedroom. So … limit to some degree, or ‘off limits entirely’ one-on-one time with no one around. This doesn’t mean chaperoning … but it does mean public places, etc. In a public place no one will bother you nor know who you are – but the presence of people nearby will discourage the ‘bedroom’ feel. Actually, that’s probably the biggest thing. We had to limit French kissing … Hm. That’s all I’m coming up with at the moment.
And I will say (since you’re talking to gals) – IT IS WORTH IT to find a guy who cherishes you as the weaker vessel. I can’t tell you how loved I felt – how taken care of and esteemed I felt – whenever Ben would respect my boundaries. I felt like a princess. Like he was my knight in shining armor, protecting his lady. I know it sounds silly … but I did. That feeling … priceless.
That’s my 2 cents! (might be more like $1.50)
and now I know why your making us our favorite meal…
KERI! You just gave yourself away, you know…
Our flesh is weak. One thing always leads to another. The most important thing I think during dating is not to spend too much alone. And if you are going to spend time alone do it in public.
I heard it explained once & it stuck with me.
As a society we are edge dancers. We dance on the edge of life. If the speed limit is 70, we go 72 hoping NOT to get caught. If we’re on a diet w/ only 1200 calories a day, we’ll cut an m&m in half to reach, but not go over or dialy calories.
When we’re driving down the road & we start feeling the flub, flub, flub of the rumble strips on the side of the road, we know we’re getting too close to the edge. We are still far from going over…but still have those rumble strips to catch our attention.
We each need to set limits, or rumble strips, for ourselves & have accountability to someone. When you’re in the middle of a relationship & you get flooded w/ feelings, you need warning signs that *wait* this is one of my rumble strips…I’m starting to head in a direction that I don’t wanna go…stop…slow down…take control
Yeah, you can make up rules for yourselves and create accountability (that is probably wise) but really, if I could go back I would let go of my own desires and manipulations (trying to control men with desire). It is all so lame. All I really did was rob us both of what the future had for us anyways. Looking back what I regret the most (out of all the boyfriends I have had) it is what I “did” with my husband before we got married the most. I gave him my heart and offered too much of my body before it was time and it was false. Phantom pleasure because it wasn’t his to have, or really – mine to give. Sad, isn’t it? So you ask how far is too far? It is different for everybody I think. For me it was a kiss. We didn’t include God in our physical romance. Why would we? We were pleasing ourselves and that is where the confusion takes place. I think that God wants to be invited to the party and for whatever reason we remove Him completely….He isn’t stupid, so if you are a Christian, why not pray about “how far you should go” and honor God with your mind and body. Actually I think we all should do that, married or not…honor God with our minds and bodies – in and out of all of our relationships.
You’ve probably already given your talk but here’s my two cents:
1. Don’t touch anything covered twice.
2. Stay vertical.
3. Do not kiss for as long as possible. Once you start, it’s downhill from there.
Joshua Harris (author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye & Boy Meets Girl, among other books) suggests that the question of “how far is to far” is problematic in its approach. We must examine purity, on a directional plane and not simply as a line. Then the proper question, in accordance with the holy standards in the are of sexual purity detailed in the Bible, is how pure can I be?
This question, and the heart behind it, in my opinion, aligns itself to the will and heart of God.
He also asks people to start viewing those they are dating as someone’s wife, whether mine or a different guy. With that in mind, what should I do? In other words, how would I want my future wife acting physically in a relationship with another guy?